In this past's weekend edition of HaModia the cover story of the magazine section was about Kiryas Joel, the Satmar enclave in Monroe, New York. Admittedly I am on pretty shaky ground blogging about it as I have been to the Rebbe's kever exactly once in my life and have never visited the village proper. And, as none of the organs of Kharedi Jewry are known for their hard hitting journalistic accuracy, basically all my information about Kiryas Joel derives from a fluff piece and various things I've heard over the years.
Still some of the data in the article gave me pause and made me wonder whether or not this enclave as it exists today is really the materialization of the great mans dream or if it ever was. Quotes from the Hamodia article are italicized in blue my comments follow.
Ever since the Rebbe set foot on American soil, he harbored the dream of building his own shtetl- a quiet secluded enclave where his Chasidim could lead their lives sheltered from the tumult of the city...."I believe I survived the war to be able to build a Yiddish Shtetl"
Other than the Skverer and Tosha Rebbes I cannot think of any other Gedolei Yisrael who thought that the success of Jewish communities depended on a flight from urbanity. OTC the vast majority of Jewish and kharedi enclaves were not even suburban, let alone rural. I write this not to position myself as a bar plugta on these illustrious Tzadikim but merely to point out that many personalities who deserved "an opinion of their own" thought otherwise.
In particular I think that whatever remnants of Pshiskha-Polish khasidus that survived the war eschewed rural flight as the preferred method of attaining Havdala min Ha'Amim. Insights like the Sokhachover's "The takhlis of nezirus is so that afterwards one drinks wine like a nazir" or the Kotzkers "Only Shlomo HaMelekh had the khokhma to be mesaken both ערובי חצרות and נטילת ידים " i.e. to be mixed into everything and to still have withdrawn hands. Or (I forgot which gitte yid said it) "You think it's a kunst to be a porush in a closet or a misboded in the forest? Real prishus is when you're both a geribbener soikher and a porush and real hisbodedus comes in a room packed with people".
A longtime Kiryas Joel dweller told me:Kiryas Joel is a geshmakeh shtet’l, both materially and spiritually, especially in the areas of tzedakah and chesed...A person who doesn’t have a car simply makes do with a local shopping Center. It's similar to the shtetlakh if yesteryear.
By geshamk materially does he mean it's a wealthy community? From everything I’ve heard it is not. And while poverty may be one of the ways that it approximates old-time east European shtetlakh is this something to be celebrated in this land of wealth and opportunity? As far as the local shopping center I'm sure that this is TOTALLY dissimilar from the way shopping was done in the Alte Heim or even in Wiilliamsburg 35 years ago. So why celebrate the lack of motor vehicles as old world simplicity and then, in the same sentence celebrate a modern up to date shopping Center that is as far fro that old world ambience as possible?
Kiryas Joel is an excellent place to raise children since they’re not exposed to the nisyonos that abound in the city. Especially now in the summer, the kids run around freely outside without fear of spiritual storm winds.
To me this is the most discussion-worthy passage of the whole piece. This is obviously the main selling point of Kiryas Joel to current citizens and prospective immigrants and arguably, just what the founding Rebbe had in mind when creating it. Without challenging the postulate-assertion that reducing ...nay ELIMINATING, nisyonos that abound in the city accrues to "excellent children" the obvious question is: has this experiment in social engineering been a smashing success, a crashing failure or a ho hum, inconclusive gray area in-between? I mean this is no longer a community in its' embryonic stages. It was founded in 1974 and with early marriage ages among khasidim 35 years represents 2+ generations of people born and raised in the secluded atmosphere of Kiryas Joel.
So it's only fair to ask the questions challenging the quoted resident’s opinion. Are the children raised in Kiryas Joel excellent adults? Are there middos more refined than their Williamsburg, Boro Park, Montreal or London brethren? Are they greater masmidim and/or TKs? Are they bigger oivdim? Are they more upgeheeten in חסידישע' ענינים ? Do they daven more ehrlikh and are they greater yirei Shomayim? Do they do better in business or professionally? Have they built unique or outstanding Mosdos of Khesed and Tzedaka that have no peers elsewhere? Do they have fewer dropouts and youth-at-risk? Or, to use a purely
Satmar-dika litmus test, is there anti-Zionism purer and more uncompromising?
I ask all these questions out of ignorance and curiosity NOT really as a challenge, though to be completely candid I've never "heard" that the generations of kids who grew to adulthood in Kiryas Joel were exceptional in any of these ways. So especially you Satmar or generic khasidish bloggers out there... (I know of at least one who actually lives there) I'd love hearing from you on this.
TO BE CONTINUED
Qedusha-Havdala...have you had YOURS today???
Monday, August 17, 2009
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31 comments:
"You think it's a kunst to be a porush in a closet or a misboded in the forest? Real prishus is when you're both a geribbener soikher and a porush and real hisbodedus comes in a room packed with people".
The Dubner Maggid said something very similar to the Gaon, when the Gaon ask him to give him mussar. The Gaon told him technically you're right, uber ich bin nisht kein kuntz macher, and continued being locked in his room.
You want kuntzim? Go to the Yetzer Hara, you'll get your dose of kuntzim, you want Ehrlichkeit? Then the ends will justify the mean, even if it entails living in a shtetl.
would you suggest that all frum yidden try to create and live in Skver-Town like shtetlakh?
I agree that seems to be the current zeitgeist. I'm merely pointing out that post-wr gedolei Ysiroel who actullay oushed hard for and accomplished the founding of such shtetlakh were few and far between.
anonymous-
Do you live in KJ, Tosh or Square? If not would you like to? Please explain your choice.
"You think it's a kunst to be a porush in a closet or a misboded in the forest? Real prishus is when you're both a geribbener soikher and a porush and real hisbodedus comes in a room packed with people".
Yiddish translation?
no, and no, because it's chasidish, and because I like gashmius which the shtetl provides little of.
"You think it's a kunst= art or trick (as in William Kunstler) to be a porush= (someone sepersted from the lowliness of the material world) in a closet or a misboded (someone practicing introspection in solitude) in the forest? Real prishus (asceticism-seperation from the material world)is when you're both a geribbener soikher (seasoned businessman) and a porush and real hisbodedus comes in a room packed with people".
Anonymous-
I'm not buying it. You think the tomato dip or delicattessan meats there are inferior to those sold in Williamsburg? As for your home...who's to stop ypu from buying a parcel and puting up a mansion? Are there any by-laws against it.
C'mon now...spill the REAL reasons...
Thanks. Never heard kunst or geribbener soikher before.
The real problem with all sects is that those on the inside think it's got tons of advantages and those on the outside don't think it's so hot.
I'll simply never understand why someone would WANT to live in a shtetl. Amongst many reasons, I think foremost is that it gives a false sense of piety - that living separate and apart from the rest of the world is enough, I've done my part, I'm now holy. There's also no external yardstick to compare yourself to, which also contributes to the "I'm so holy, I don't need to do more" attitude.
Additionally, in today's day and age where we're "all connected" it's naive to think a shtetl can even exist or that the trials and challenges of the city will stay far away.
The notion that anything today is similar to yesteryear is similarly preposterous and is based on a lack of knowledge of history and/or willful blindness. Besides, what makes the shtetl of say 70 years ago so idyllic?
lots. Tons. The question is can they really be replicated, recreated today on these shores.
Such as?
emunah p'shuta, tzniyus (I don't mean long sleves...I mean keeping your inner religious life to yourself rather than wearing it on your sleeve), Living spartan frugal lives, Jewsih populations generally small enough so thatyou knew everyone else in town, often bucolic settings where swimmable rivers and mountains were nearby, Tremendous autonomy approaching the level of a shadow government for many Jewsih kehillos, locally slaughtered meat-nothing frozen, Ballbustas who were all fantastic cooks and knew enough yoreh deah to know when to ask a shaila, a kheder system who's graduates were able to function as Jews ofetn with only a 7th grade education.
I think that's a representative sampling.
Anony-
going back to your first comment.
I really think that it's apples and oranges. The Dubner Magid, though engaged by the GR"A as his personal Baal Mussar was his spiritual inferior . Whereas the Kotzker?? Or whichever Rebbe made the kunst remark was clearly the Rebbe and superior of his khasidim and held that they , as a group, SHOULD try to be kunst-makhers. Different time and place, adressing different madregos.
And as we know from Rasb"i what works for yekheedaie Segulah does not always work for the masses.
Great post.
Not being exposed to nisyonos for one's entire life kind of circumvents the entire purpose of the Torah.
Isn't the Torah designed to help train us to pass nisyonos?
Further, not being challenged throughout one's life leaves one ill-equipped to meet life's challenges that one in will inevitably face.
Some of what you mention is more a matter of personal taste than anything else - e.g. spartan frugal lives, bucolic settings, fresh meat, great cooks.
Also, it's not clear why I can't have much of that outside a shtetl. There aren't good cooks outside a shtetl? Fresh food isn't available? I can't drive to a bucolic area?
Also, why can't I live OOT or in a smaller Jewish community or a smaller shul in a Jewish community and know everyone in shul? And while "acheinu kol beit yisrael" I don't have to know everyone or be friends with everyone - though I do appreciate the sense of community you're speaking about.
I also don't understand why I need a Jewish semi-autonomous govt. What's wrong with US laws and living in a US legal system?
Finally, what about a shtetl allows for emunah pshuta and why is this a good trait? Why not emunah through hard questioning, long study, and deep introspection? Also, why can't there be the tznius you talk about elsewhere? I also don't understand what you mean. I don't broadcast my inner religious life.
Finally, it just seems like you're idealizing the simple, semi-ignorant, poor, working-class Jew who's basically Tevya straight out of Fiddler who blindly listens to his rebbe.
I'm also not clear on why you're defending shtetls now when you seem to be against them in the post.
I'm not against them at all. as anyone who followed my long-standing feuds with DB knows I am a great fan of that culture and hold that it's destruction was one of Hitler YM"S primary victories and one that we have yet, and may never, recover from. My quibble in this post is threefold
A. Is KJ, Tosh et al really replicating that culture and lifestyle.
B. In light of the Holocaust should we even be seeking to replicate or do we need to adapt to current post-Holocust realities.
C. Are the facts on the ground in KJ today evidence of an experiment gone wrong or an experiment not faithfully executed.
Isn't the Torah designed to help train us to pass nisyonos?
Maybe the best training for passing with flying colors is the constant avoidance of them that communicates and implicit fear of / disastrous consequences of failure. Maybe that's what yiras khet is and what we pray for every morning in birkhas haShakhar אל תביאני לידי נסיון
Also, it's not clear why I can't have much of that outside a shtetl. There aren't good cooks outside a shtetl? Fresh food isn't available? I can't drive to a bucolic area?
One can khop certain aspects of the shtetl life which, in the final analysis is what KJ, Tosh are attempting, it's the "total package" that I rhapsodize about.
I also don't understand why I need a Jewish semi-autonomous govt. What's wrong with US laws and living in a US legal system?
Among other things tuition was less of an issue as the independent kehillos levied taxes and dues from old and young alike that bankrolled all kehilla employees, Rov , Kahzan, kheder melamdim, Shokhtim et al. Also the notion of one Jew shlepping another to arko'os (Goyishe Courts) instead of things being setteld either through binding arbitration (borerus) or actual dinei Torah by local Dayonim was almost unheard of
Finally, what about a shtetl allows for emunah pshuta and why is this a good trait? Why not emunah through hard questioning, long study, and deep introspection?
Both have there advantages. But with the dissappearnce of the shtet'l the former is nearly a lost art.
Suffice it to say that החסיד יעב"ץ who was from those expelled from Spain in 1492 wrote that the Conversos came almost exclusively from the ranks of those Jews who had engaged in Philosophical Inquiry to butrees theoir emunah whereas the rank and file that lived by emunah p"shuta eschewed rationalizations for outwrd-only shmad and withstood the test of convert-die-or flee wit hflying colors.
Also, why can't there be the tznius you talk about elsewhere? I also don't understand what you mean. I don't broadcast my inner religious life.
I think it's just a function of cultural osmosis living in the conspicuous consumption, if-you-got-it-flaunt-it big-city culture most of us live in.
Finally, it just seems like you're idealizing the simple, semi-ignorant, poor, working-class Jew who's basically Tevya straight out of Fiddler who blindly listens to his rebbe.
IIRC Tevyeh seem to be living in a Litvisha shtet'l has no Rebbe and has a very direct and intimate relationship with G-d. And despite his relative ignorance I consider his "type" to be a far better Jew than me.
Personally, I don't think any system is perfect, because not everyone fits into a system even if it is "perfect" for 99% of people. Furthermore, a pitfall of any system is that it doesn't allow people to easily switch to another system - outside is bad, here is good; those who leave are bad, those who stay are good.
But, even if you want to argue the shtetl was as good as it can possibly get, it's impossible to recreate it here.
1) This is America, not Europe. There's so much that goes in here including antisemitism, government, city-centered life here, cultural differences, etc.
2) Technological explosion and interconnectedness.
3) It's like trying to recreate bubbe's bubbe's chicken soup recipe when the original wasn't written down, the only one who knew how to make it died 50+ years ago, and all we have is a description of the taste.
4) Ignorance and lack of education are more harmful nowadays.
Also, the explosion is yeshiva tuition has a lot to do with people's expectations going through the roof compared to previous generations (some good, some bad) and a lack of effectively using resources in our communities (shul facilities, shul rabbis, kollel guys, tzedaka outside community, etc).
This post is a bit backwards. First one should arrive at an opinion about being a Satmar chusid. Few Jews who are not Hungarian find the Satmar option attractive. Even if one is Hungarian there are a half dozen rebbes to choose from. Even if one doesn't pick one of the Teitelbaum brothers there are to quote a wit on Tzig "all 15 spinkers,6 krechnifs
and don't forget the holy Premislaner." not to speak of Munkacs and Dushinsky and the Toldas Ahron Rebbes and many more.
Suppose this Hungarian settles in on Satmar he has two options , he can become a city Satmar or a country Satmar or both, going to one tisch when in KJ and another tisch in Williamsburg.
I think the greatness of the late Satmar Rav were in his hashkafos and in particular his anti Zionism. His arrival in America and the speech he gave in Torah Vodaath was one of the seminal turning points in American Jewish life. Despite there being a substantial, solid group of Orthodox Jews in Williamsburg, the first simchas torah when hundreds of Jews in full chassidic garb marched and danced in the streets was something never before seen, and changed the possibilities for Judaism in America.
How does this make the post "backwards"?
Ignorant about the TV Speech..Do tell.
You begin with KY as basic. First one has to be a chusid and then a Satmar chusid and then decide how to handle the split betqween the brothers, before you even get to what is good about KY. And the most important part of the answer is that KY provides one way of being close to Reb Aaron and/or other Satmar chasidim. A Lubavitcher would rather live in Kazakhistan than KY.
"I'm not buying it. You think the tomato dip or delicattessan meats there are inferior to those sold in Williamsburg? As for your home...who's to stop ypu from buying a parcel and puting up a mansion? Are there any by-laws against it.
C'mon now...spill the REAL reasons..."
There is no non-hasidic enclave except for south falsburg, and Im not locking my self up there. While the gashmius of 5 towns disgust me, I wont be able to give up the amenities of brooklyn has to offer. I truthfully could live in Bensonhurst, but I don't think I had enough in comon with my neighbors do to my unfortunate gashmius conditioning.
"The Dubner Magid, though engaged by the GR"A as his personal Baal Mussar was his spiritual inferior . Whereas the Kotzker?? Or whichever Rebbe made the kunst remark was clearly the Rebbe and superior of his khasidim and held that they , as a group, SHOULD try to be kunst-makhers. Different time and place, adressing different madregos."
Look deep in to your soul, and tell me it's not the tarnish of an american boy talking and want "exposure" with whatever moreh heter. About the gaon, there is a quote from him, "it's better to sit home with your hands folded, than to run in the shuk looking for mitzvos", and this was before there were pritzus in the shuk, his point was there is just too much of a chance of unnecessary avairos. Al achas kama vikama today.
"I'm not buying it. You think the tomato dip or delicattessan meats there are inferior to those sold in Williamsburg? As for your home...who's to stop ypu from buying a parcel and puting up a mansion? Are there any by-laws against it.
C'mon now...spill the REAL reasons..."
There is no non-hasidic enclave except for south falsburg, and Im not locking my self up there. While the gashmius of 5 towns disgust me, I wont be able to give up the amenities of brooklyn has to offer. I truthfully could live in Bensonhurst, but I don't think I had enough in comon with my neighbors do to my unfortunate gashmius conditioning.
"The Dubner Magid, though engaged by the GR"A as his personal Baal Mussar was his spiritual inferior . Whereas the Kotzker?? Or whichever Rebbe made the kunst remark was clearly the Rebbe and superior of his khasidim and held that they , as a group, SHOULD try to be kunst-makhers. Different time and place, adressing different madregos."
Look deep in to your soul, and tell me it's not the tarnish of an american boy talking and want "exposure" with whatever moreh heter. About the gaon, there is a quote from him, "it's better to sit home with your hands folded, than to run in the shuk looking for mitzvos", and this was before there were pritzus in the shuk, his point was there is just too much of a chance of unnecessary avairos. Al achas kama vikama today.
Who needs to look deep? My tarnish is right up there on the surface for all to see. The fact that I blog is tarnish enough to damn me to hell.
As far as needing davka a non-khasidic encalve you might find it inetersting that per the article the very first resident of KJ was aYekke form Washinton Heights-Eli Birnbaum A"H.
"Not being exposed to nisyonos for one's entire life kind of circumvents the entire purpose of the Torah."
Are we not supposed to avoid nisyones? Isn't that what we have been taught (and is prudent, except for the argument that we gain by overcoming temptation, but since there is no guaranty that we won't succomb, it is merely a theoretical argument)?
"Further, not being challenged throughout one's life leaves one ill-equipped to meet life's challenges that one in will inevitably face."
Yeh, Dr. Lamn uses that argument a lot. Many times it borders on the circular.
I said much the same @ 4:19 yesterday.
Bray - would you suggest that all frum yidden try to create and live in Skver-Town like shtetlakh?
Of course not. Good frum yidden should observe the mitzvot of the Torah. And isn't one of the mitzvot yishuv Eretz Yisrael?
Nowhere in the Torah does it say to create shtetlach. As far as I can tell, throughout history, the main purpose of shtetlach were so the goyim who hate the Jews knew where to go find them and murder them.
Mark
OK Mark-
Should frum yidden already living in Eretz Yisrael seek to form Square Town /KJ like communities?
Bray - Should frum yidden already living in Eretz Yisrael seek to form Square Town /KJ like communities?
No, that is idiotic. In fact, in my opinion, so much of what Charedim do is idiotic AND Goyishe. You guys wear goyishe clothing, and have adopted so much goyishe schtick, mainly ascetism which is clearly assur per Judaism.
Mark
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