The Rebbe Reb Zisheh of Hanipoli famously listed 7 lessons in ' עבודת ה = the service of G-d that he learned from thieves and burglars. There are good points to learn from everyone and everything.
In this vein and in response to the ugly recriminations flying fast and furious from one Toevah community to another over at the Mega-J-Bloggers place, humble me submits an incomplete list of things the Torah-True Community can learn from the LGBT community. When IMO the lesson in Jewishness is learned from a particular component of the LGBT community I’ve indicated as much with the appropriate capital letter:
1. What we find attractive others find unattractive or downright repulsive. So what? Who cares? They can’t possibly understand. We are wired differently.
2. While we may love and respect our families we ought not to hesitate to alienate our families if they stand in the way of our relationship with our One true love.
3. We need Jewish eyes to see and apprehend everything around us. Jewishness is not just one element of our identities or something that directs a particular sphere of activity/activities. OTC it defines EVERYTHING about us.
4. (T) We ought not to hesitate to undergo RADICAL transformations, including counseling, name changes and even surgery if our current identities don’t “feel right”
5. (B) It’s possible to live in two worlds at one time
6. (G) Lack of commitment may equate to disease and even death while monogamy and commitment is healthy
7. (L) We need a room of our own
8. Ideally we should prioritize vacation locales and activities that help us actualize our identities
9. Being closeted is unhealthy. Let the world know that you are Jewish
10. Sometimes showing our pride in our identity requires the wearing of outlandish costumes
11. (G) If the front door is locked try the back door
12. We’re Jews and in the News…ya better get used to it.
13. (L) Embrace Klezmer Music
Last and most obvious:
14. Serve the L-rd with gaiety and gladness of heart.
One thing that we must NOT learn from the LGBT community is that it’s all right to make statements that incriminate others while being parsed to keep ourselves innocent and blame free.
פלוני רבעני לרצוני [פלגינן דיבוריה ו] הוא ואחר מצטרפין להרגו
I’m sure that this list would be much longer were it not for my being blissfully ignorant of more of the ways and mores of LGBT culture.
Next up “The positive side of Bestiality” (that’s a joke …only a joke)
Qedusha-Havdala…have you had your today???
Wednesday, August 12, 2009
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58 comments:
Yee Hah..We may break 200 today!!!
Regarding number 4. What about Botox?
Seriously, a great post, but 4 bothers me because it implies that quick transformations are positive. All change must be gradual and consistent in order to be effective, and longlasting. It requires work; not quick fixes. The quick fixes in Yiddishkeit is influenced by the American culture.
fast pace, instantaneuos, etc
Yes, I know you agree with this; but, the inference goes towards the other direction.
Bray, if you are looking for hits, just bash Charedim....
yes and no. In general you're right but there is a concept of יש קונה עולמו בשעה אחת
I forget which wise person said I paraphrase" Do not fear theoccasional gigantic leap. Great chasms cannot be crossed in small steps"
And even in the moshol credible physicians who do gender reassignment surgery will demand a long and slow process with much psychological counseling before taking the radical and sometimes irreversible surgical steps.
hey holy brother... is there something we can do so that I'm not the sole commenetr by you and that you're not the sole commenter here?
Very interesting and not something I expected.
Keep in mind though that many items are slightly stereotypical, though the points you make are still valid.
#5: sounds like the MO creed.
#6: monogamy to our spouse or to God?
#7: What did you mean by this?
#10: very funny
#11: not sure what you mean.
#12: seems we're in the news lately for all the wrong reasons
Can you explain the last aramaic quote?
Where can I find the list about thieves? Have a link?
No link but I'll either email you or make a seperate post of it.
Iluish. Either JS or I misinterpret 5. I thought you refer to Gashmi and Ruchni. Palginan diburai was an awesome shot
midwest
#5: sounds like the MO creed.
Yes and no. IMHuO most MOs have taken up fuul time residence in the Gentile worls and only maintain crash pads in the Jewsih one
#6: monogamy to our spouse or to God?
commitmet all around is a great thing and life-giving in both bein adam l'maqom u'l'khaveiro. see my No Bread-in-the-Basket post from Monday
#7: What did you mean by this?
as we won't get a fair shake in the "straight/gentile" world we need our own separatist enclaves and institutions
>#10: very funny
What took you so long? the whole post is one big hoot! LOL
#11: not sure what you mean.
This is a family blog and I won't explicate further. HINT see the parnthetical capital letter
#12: seems we're in the news lately for all the wrong reasons
Naaa. Israel is ALWAYS in the news right or wrong, ethical or unethical, virtuous or scandalous
Can you explain the last aramaic quote?
In the next comment
thanks midwest
JS as midwest alluded the aramaic is a reference to the famous sugya of "palginun deebureh"- "we parse the tetimony"
The rule in Halkhic jurisprudence is that self-incriminating confessions/testimonies have no credibility in criminal (as oppossed to civil) cases yet if one person testifies: "Mr. X engaged in CONSENSUAL Homosexual intercourse with me" then the law is: "he and another witness (reporting the same sin) join together to sentence Mr. X to execution"
#11: not sure what you mean.
This is a family blog and I won't explicate further. HINT see the parnthetical capital letter
I know what you mean in the "G" context, what do you mean for Jews?
The problem is if we delete the first witnesses testimony because he has incriminated himself then we only have one kosher witness left and due process requires a minimum of two?
The solution: "palginan deeburey" we parse the self-incriminating witnesses words and accord him credibility vis a vis Mr. X but discount the word "consensual" IOW we treat Mr. X as if he had commited homosexual rape.
Do I need to spell out the nimshal for you?
As a farbrenta Litvak (oxymoron) maybe I shouldn't post this but I found a link for you.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=3688&st=&pgnum=5
Midwest
OK, trying to see if I follow:
1) If someone says, "I did X" it's not valid testimony.
2) But, if someone says "Ploni and I did X" it is valid testimony (assuming a 2nd person backs it up).
You're saying that incriminating oneself is better than just saying "Ploni did X."
I agree.
What does the LGBT community do that incriminates others and keeps them blame free?
OK JS I'll spell out the nimhal of number 11:
If a Jew finds that the front door accesse= the standard approaches of avodas HaShem seem locked and inaccesible, then try something funky.
Rav Chaim doesn't work for you? Learn Avnei Nezer or Ostrovtzer Torah?
Conventional khasidus leaves you dry? join the Moonies or sundry Breslover streams.... etc.
Blaze your owntrail don't be a sheeple.
I hate blogger. It dosn't let you know when a new comment comes in. Anyone know how I could install haloscan?
http://www.haloscan.com/help/InstallingHaloScan
Sorry JS I wasn't clear enough.
it's not the second person (the pitcher) backing him up because confessionto homosexuality is just as self-incriminating/sinful if you are the pitcher as if you are the catcher. It's an independant 3rd party who observed witness one and Mr. X going at it without participating himself. Normally we would rquire TWO such disinterested witnesses. The rule of Palginan Diburay allows us to parse and extract the "usable" i.e. "incriminating of others" portion of witness ones (participant in the sin) testimony and attach it to the fully kosher testimony.
thsi allows Sanhedrin to execute just ONE of the particpants in a consensual sex crime despite the fact that it takes two to tango.
You're saying that incriminating oneself is better than just saying "Ploni did X."
Not at all. Please re-read pror comments
What does the LGBT community do that incriminates others and keeps them blame free?
in the here and now world...nothing at all unless you count their propoganda about breeders and malthusian overpoulation concerns.
I was referring to the hallowed place this reference to Gay Sex occupies in Talmudic law and lore.
Why aren't there 20 more commenters here now? Midwest is right! This post is ilusih! LOL
I understood what you meant about how we're "mistareif" two witnesses.
What happens in a case where both participants make the same "Ploni and I did X"? Is the 3rd party witness mistareif to each of them and they're both executed? Is it whichever one made the incriminating comment first?
Thanks for the refernce Midwest. I saw it in MeMayonos HaNetzakh on Pirkei Avos on the Mishna of Eizehu Khokhom HaLomed M'kol Ahdam.
What's a farbrenter Litvak like you doing having b'keeus in Butzeena Kadeesha?
JS can you manage with that link or do you still want a translation?
For the few virtual Breslover misbodedim here, does anyone have anything to add about what we can learn from the LGBT community?
I'm also curious why the person would say "Ploni and I did X" instead of "Ploni did X" - why self-incriminate?
Don't remember. Would have to re-learnthe sugya. Any resemblance between me and a true yodeah sefer are purely coincidental.
He was just being honest. Maybe he was a member of BOTH toeyvah communities and knew he could afford to be honest without getting stoned.
We should keep our Jewishnesss zipped below the waist
We should march in Pride Parades at Carta parking lot
We should keep our Jewishnesss zipped below the waist
ROTFLMHO
Just one question...are you a gartel-during-davening-only or a gartel-all-day man?
I don't own one
On my bekeshe Shabbos only
And the gartel police don't harass you?? Nest thing you'll tell me that you grow a frizoohr.
Well, here's my attempt.
Translation (using commentary at bottom as well):
He taught himself from creation three things from a baby and seven things from a thief.
From a baby:
1) To always be happy (Just as a baby doesn't worry, we too should not worry and only serve God with happiness);
2) To not sit idle; and
3) Cry for what you desire (A baby
only cried if he's hungry. So too
with us, if we lack a livelihood we should cry out to God).
And from a thief:
1) He works at night
2) If he's unsuccessful the first night, he tries again another night
3) Thieves love all thieves (the thief's code)
4) He risks his life for even small things
5) ???
6) He is wounded and suffers and nonetheless doesn't waiver
7) His way of life is beautiful in his own eyes and he would never change it
Methodology
Go to Hebrewbooks.org
Search for Zisha - there is an on screen keyboard
Mouse over the found list for a title page that's a maybe
Manually scan the first couple pages
I think you owe me a bracha - Choshed bikshairim
Midwest
Basij got their priorities straight
aw shucks you did such an excellent job there goes my next post (unless I get lazy and decide to comment mine you tomorrow!)
here's number five:
"Despite risking his life to obtain the stolen merchandise he'll fence it at a loss for below market value"
The sefer I saw this in added "and he does so to lose the incriminating evidence ASAP and throw the authorities off his trail"
Midwest
zai gezint in shtah-rek as we say in Varsheh
hershey...Basij???? mai hai?
Feel to use it. I just did it as an exercise for myself and for anyone else reading the comments.
Didn't quite get #2 for the baby and the comment at the bottom didn't elucidate. Thoughts?
JS-
idle hands are the devils work. It means to never rest on your laurels. fginished one mesikhta? great velebrate with a siyum andstart another or khazir the old one. Did a khesed? Great now do another ad infinitum.
As the Kotzker said "I don't want yineleit that are too frun to sin. I want yingeleit atht are too busy too sin"
Tale goes, the famous Chassidic rabbi (insert name here) was seeing a patient other colleagues couldn’t cure by incantational medicine, and behold, wonders upon wonders, the chassid got well soon. When asked “how didya do it?”, the great rabbi said, “I’ve been to heaven and realized the gates of life are sealed off.” “I decided to try the back door.” “I took his case to the livelihood department, and request was granted; no problems.” “I then pleaded that מן דיהב חיי יהיב מזוני” “Thus, they were tricked into giving the guy life.”
Hence, #11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basij
OK I think that I get it now. The Basij of KJ have bigger fish to fry than dereliction of gartel duty.
Your 4.) isn’t ever true of transgendered and that is the problem. How do they know who they really are when they are so confused about their identity? There have been not a few cases where the transgendered person had second thoughts, but it was too late. BTW is it Jewish –charedi to undergo rhinoplasty?
Your 7) is more relevant to the issue of Mahrats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Room_of_One's_Own
Your 11) if literal is not an appropriate thing to say on a frum blog. I guess you mean it in a Kotzker sort of way, oiyb men ken nisht ariber, etc.
There is a large literature on the analogies between gays and Jews, the 100+ page essay buried somewhere (vol.4-6?) inside Proust being the most famous. Boyarin discusses the issue both in his book Unheroic Conduct and in the anthology Queer Theory and the Jewish Question.
I am happy you wrote this post…we are all becoming so hip, and just before Elul. The times are surely changing.
My favorites:
5 (living in 2 worlds)
6 (commitment is healthy)
11 (get it done)
14 (simchas hachayim)
shkoyach on a very thoughtful post!
EJ-
4 isn't true? Sure it's true. i'm not condoning it nor approving of it. just gleaning a lesson from it. Your critique is akin to saying Reb Zishe was admiring ganovim.
the nimshal to Yiddishkeit has to do with radical transformations made by BTs and ought to be made by FFBs and the surgery was not a reference to rhinoplasty but to the milah of a ger tzedek.
of course 11 is innapropriate. But somtimes
וואס אי-ידעלער דער נמשל אלץ גראבער מוז זיין דער משל
or would you prefer I take the YWN tack and call it toyevah because it is truly the "sin that dare not speak it's name"?
Of course I meant the Kotzker, Pushiter Yid offered another great nimshal
and on its simplest level it means what I said @ 12:40 PM.
As for Proust and Queer theory
A. As I wrote in the post itself I’m sure that this list would be much longer were it not for my being blissfully ignorant of more of the ways and mores of LGBT culture. and
B.מקום הניחו לך בלוגותיך להתגדר בו
This IIRC is the second time you've invoked Elul in under 24 hours and once we're talking Kotzker עליך אמר הכתוב אל תפנו אל האלולים.
Among the many qualities that I lack to ever be a really succesful blogger is a thick skin. When it come to mussar I can dish it out but I can't take it.
well this has been extremely gratifying and it's hard to tear myself away but the real world beckons.
As this is not haloscan I'veno idea how many visitors are currently here but I do hope you'll all carry n early and often in my anticipated 2 hour plus absence.
JS wrote
I'm also curious why the person would say "Ploni and I did X" instead of "Ploni did X" - why self-incriminate?
Thera are 2 points.
Why is of no concern. The issue is if he did say it what can we do with his Eidus.
Self incrimination only is valid in monetary law and in bringing a korban Chatos. In criminal cases it is not accepted. Be aware that there are many nuances to accepting
partial testimony. For example if the wording cannot be parsed but the meaning is a subject of dispute.
Midwest
Interesting.
In #4, by surgery, ae you referring to brit milah?
By the way, my open-mindedness hits a wall when it comes to transgendering. I think mutilating the body that God gave one is horrible. Not that I ever would ostracize or discriminate against such people, but come on - chopping off one's genitals is mutilation and a far cry from simply having sex with the gender one prefers.
Maybe I'll write a post on this.
BOF...c'v...unless someone gets me upset I am not in the mussar business. Au contraire I am happy to see this topic out and front. The Elul is ironic...I respect the courage it takes to talk about this from the place where you are coming from.
I should add one more resemblance I've noticed. The only group that ever comes close to talking about themselves as much as Jews are gays. They have written up a storm since the Stonewall riots. When we get to Jews vs. gays there is a great deal to talk about but few have touched this topic. (I wrote a piece on idealization in Art Scroll bios and Proust, which is close but different.)
Kudos to you.
Bray - IMHuO most MOs have taken up full time residence in the Gentile world and only maintain crash pads in the Jewish one
Yes, you would think this. Meanwhile, serious MO folks think that it is you Charedim that are changing into a different religion, one that has adopted many non-Jewish concepts (such as asceticism, extreme separation ["havdala"] at all levels, and other things we commonly define as maladies).
Mark
serious MO
an oxymoron. All the serious ones made aliyah, are making aliyah or died 30 years ago.
such as asceticism,
כך היא דרכה של תורה....פת במלח תאכל
and נאה עניותא לישראל...
and איזהו עשיר? השמח בחלקו
extreme separation
א אין הולכין בחוקות הגויים, ולא מידמין להן--לא במלבוש, ולא בשיער, וכיוצא בהן: שנאמר "ולא תלכו בחוקות הגוי" (ויקרא כ,כג), ונאמר "ובחוקותיהם, לא תלכו" (ויקרא יח,ג), ונאמר "הישמר לך, פן תינקש אחריהם" (דברים יב,ל). הכול בעניין אחד הוא מזהיר: שלא יידמה להן--אלא יהיה הישראלי מובדל מהן וידוע במלבושו ובשאר מעשיו, כמו שהוא מובדל מהן במדעו ובדעותיו. וכן הוא אומר "ואבדיל אתכם מן העמים" (ויקרא כ,כו).
Non Jewish concepts?
and other things we commonly define as maladies).
Was that the royal "we" or are you now some groups official spokesperson?
and BTW thanks for the left handed compliment (maladies) bwtween considering Kharedim wicked or ill I suppose being sick is the lesser of the two evils.
Bray, Mark and EJ for Elul
Reb Yeruchim on Havdala
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=12138&st=&pgnum=207
As to asceticism I would recommend your piece on the church and the discussion particularlly NB comment
Midwest
Midwest-
Most fascinating part of the page you linked was that he makes the whole maakholos asuros into a kind of stam yaynom d'oraysa.
I also found his approach to the havdala of Yisrael to be rooted in the ttaruvos of the Eitz HaDa'as to be almost khasidish.
Obviously, Mesilas Yeshorim was not the only work of the Ramkha"l that influenced him.
Tomar Devora - the Ramak - was published in Shanghai. I think the concept ot taruvous you mention is quite similar to the Ruach Chaim we discussed on NB about Baal Peor. The Nephes HaChaim was looked at a lot in the Mir and some started before Shaar Daled.
The football reference albeit probably as a spectator sport brought to mind a thought that was sometimes mentioned in Lakewood. Americans went to Lakewood because Reb Ahron could be soivel guys playing basketball Friday afternoon. Reb Leib Malin could not.
Midwest
Midwest
football? when? where? what?
Page 210
כי אם "ויתערבו בגוים וילמדו ממעשיהם".
יפה אמר הסבא ז"ל וב ח ו ק ו ת י ה ם
לא תלכו, כי יש משפטים ויש חוקים, משפטים
הם דברים שיש להם טעם, וחוקים הם דברים
בלא טעם ורק כגזירה וחוקה, ואמר כי ב,'משפטים" אם עושים כמעשיהם יש בזה
עוד איזה הצטדקות, מילתא בטעמא, אבל
לעשות כתועבותיהם בדברים שאין להם אף
טעם ורק גזירות וחקים שיהם, כגזירת מלך,
זהו נורא מאד ! והנה רואים אנו שעתה
נעשה אצלם לחוק שבכיס העליון משימים
מטפחת אדומה, וזה בלא טעם כלי, וכל העולם
מחקים את זה. ולדעתי כשאנו רואים בתורה
אזהרה בפ' א"מ כמעשי ארץ מצרים ל א תעשו
וכמעשי ארץ כנען אשר אני מביא אתכם שמה
לא תעשו ובחוקותיהם לא תלכו, אני שומע
מזה אזהרה שלא יהי' אצלכם "פוטבטי"
וכדומה. שלא תעשו כמעשי הגוים.
והנה באמת כשנשקיף על עצמינו בהבטה
Midwest
It diodn't paste properly there is a lamed at the end.
idwest
I don't get it. Maybe I'll post about it.
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