While some Havdala Heroes have decided to resign rather than be a party to the Havdala Obliterating and Oblivious rebellion against G-d and Nature known as the Marriage Equality Bill, others have decided they just can't wait to aid and abet the outrage.
Unable to forbear the anguish and suffering of the LGBTers even 21 hours longer, the powers that be in Greenburgh, New York have decided to voluntarily open@ noon on Sunday for the same-sex marriage business when the bill becomes law (July 24th) rather than wait until Monday morning at nine. To add to the historic occasion , representatives from the LOFT — a lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community center in White Plains — are planning special festivities at Town Hall to commemorate the event.
Also, Antun's of Westchester, an Elmsford catering service, is expected to donate food for those waiting in line, Town Supervisor Paul Feiner said.
"We were on the forefront of the issue over 10 years ago, because we were the second community in Westchester to allow for domestic partnerships," Feiner said Tuesday. [Apparently Feiner is hell-bent, and I do mean hell bent, on a first place finish this time]
Well the day is certainly historic. Historic like the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the Sinking of the Titanic or the destruction of the World Trade Center were. June 24th 2011 will join these on the list of re-letter days that will live in infamy. Greenburgh Town Clerk Judith Beville may have been prophesying unconsciously (ניבא ולא ידע מה ניבא) when she predicted : "I anticipate an overflow into Greenburgh,". Hell ya. An overflow such as the Deluge that inundated the world in the times of Noah!
To the esteemed progressive, Havdala Oblivious Municipal Government of Greenburgh, to the LOFT and to Antun's of Westchester I say: a pox on all your houses. You will go down in history as the first ones to have made the misstep that slips down the slope towards the coming apocalypse. Or to paraphrase the Mayor of the far more egalitarian Munchkinland:
"You'll be HISS , You'll be HISS, You'll be HISS-TORY,
and we will horrify your name,
for your breach of trust
in the suburban sprawl of shame"
בא המבדיל והעמידן על אחת
"Those who cannot tolerate Havdala cannot appreciate Qedusha".
18 comments:
A non havdala approach to homosexuality and other similar issues from Harav Yuvel Sherlow, a prominent and much admired Religious Zionist rabbi in Israel:
העולמות. מה אתה אומר לבחור דתי שמגיע אליך ומספר לך על נטייה מינית הפוכה? "
אין תשובה אחת שהיא נכונה לכולם. הדבר המרכזי שלמדתי בשנים האחרונות זה שצריך לתפור לכל אחד 'חליפה' משל עצמו, ולא זו בלבד, אלא שהוא צריך לתפור את החליפה שלו. אני לא יכול לקבל את ההכרעות במקומו. זה שונה אם הוא בשלב שבו הוא מחפש את זהותו או אם הוא משוכנע שהוא עמוק בפנים והוא לא יכול לצאת מהעולם הזה, זה משנה עד כמה עולמו הדתי מרכזי, וזה תלוי ביחס השונה בסביבת ההורים והמשפחה. אין תשובה שהיא נכונה לכולם. יש דבר אחד שמנחה אותי: אני לא רוצה שהקונפליקט בין תחושת הזהות העצמית לבין הזהות הדתית יסתיים בהכנעה של אחד משני הצדדים. זה לא יצליח וזה לא פועל. צריך לנסות למצוא את הדרך לחיות בין שתי הזהויות האלה. אם השאלה היא האם מותר לקיים יחסי אישות חד מיניים התשובה היא חד משמעית: לא. בלי שום היתר והקלות. אבל עד שם יש קשת רחבה של התמודדויות שצריך לעזור בהן, ובסופו של דבר זה הבחירה שלו, ולא שלי"
How in the world did you interpret this as non-havdala?
What has this got to do with the marriage equality bill? I have never posted TTBOMK on the issue of what individual Jewish Gays or Lesbians ought to do to deal with their orientation and religious identity.
I oppose societal and legislative measures that erase differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals, between men and women, between children and adults and between Jews and the balance of humanity.
I have no blanket fear or loathing of LGBTs Jewish or non.
saying that every case must be dealt with on an individual basis and that the male homosexual act is always prohibited under every circumstance are stands that I agree with 100%. what's your beef with me and what's the "non" havdala?
He is saying when homosexuals are not searching, but immersed and satisfied with their homosexual orientation זה משנה עד כמה עולמו הדתי מרכזי
What could that mean other than such a person's resolution will be different, and we outsiders should be empathic and respectful of their choices, not just say it is forbidden and an abomination because בסופו של דבר זה הבחירה שלו, ולא שלי
This last quote means, if it is not to be trivial, that the homosexual has a right to choose that should be respected by society and thereby the law, even though it is forbidden by the Torah.
Why does he say אני לא רוצה שהקונפליקט בין תחושת הזהות העצמית לבין הזהות הדתית יסתיים בהכנעה של אחד משני הצדדים... צריך לנסות למצוא את הדרך לחיות בין שתי הזהויות האלה. Because each of us in the end must and therefore has a right to decide our distinctive approach to sex,love and all the rest.צריך לתפור את החליפה שלו
A havadala person would never say it is UNDESIRABLE when there is a conflict between the experience of a religious identity or self conception, and the experience of one's self(essence) as homosexual, that one side should triumph over the other. The havdala position is that since homosexuality is a sin, an abomination, it should not exist/flourish/prosper. It's existence like all abominations is bad for humanity and displeasing to God. (For an extreme particularly dopey version, consult the collected rantings of Rabbi Yehuda Levin.)
Once we are here it is a short distance to saying everyone should have the same opportunity to exercise their sexual orientation. Just like we wouldn't say everyone has an equal right to vote if one group has to walk 30 miles to the nearest voting booth, similarly we should not create special legal difficulties and burdens when two people choose a homosexual relationship. In our case where we are talking of non-Jews in a liberal society when we guarentee equal rights etc, it is especially problematic when you have no particular issue with sex between men.
I don't think that the last quote is trivial at all I think that he is talking about exercising his free choice as to whether or not to act out in his orientation.
The havdala position is that since homosexuality is a sin, an abomination, it should not exist/flourish/prosper. It's existence like all abominations is bad for humanity and displeasing to God.
you are free to voice your own position but kindly refrain from dictating mine. This does not describe my position with any clarity or nuance. I have often written here and elsewhere that I am quite conflicted over whether same-sex attractions/ orientations are a matter of free choice or inborn programming. I have a hard time ignoring the collective testimony of literally millions of people but i also have a hard time ignoring the Ramban who writes that, at least in the case of Gay males, it is an outgrowth of overindulgence and sexual boredom.
To say that the yearning for another male is is bad for humanity and displeasing to God is a half truth. All yearning to do that which the Torah prohibits is evil. That is why it's called Yetzer Hora and Hirhurei aveira. But in this regard Gay yearnings are not qualitatively different than yearnings for lashon Hara, cheeseburgers, cooking on shabbos or another mans wife.
On another level it might be said that these yearnings when suppressed and/or sublimated are VERY pleasing to G-d, more so than anything else inasmuch as they represent the triumph of human free will to serve G-d and not oneself.
What troubles me is having it both ways it can't simultaneously be beyond free will and respectable anymore than kleptomania or nymphomania should be respected and treated as alternative norms.
The Torah recognizes gray areas that defy easy categorization. Bein hashemoshos, Palges, Kuyee, Tumtum , Androgynous, khatzee eved khatzee ben khorin etc. Just as there are mischling, neutered or doubled physiological gender identities perhaps there exist such psycho-spiritual identities as well.
The arguments in so many of my posts can be boiled down to sevral basic assertions:
1. That insofar as there is a "nurture" component to LGBTs as well as emasculated straight males and de-feminized straight women the sundry egalitarian movements, legislation and the resulting pan-societal acceptance has accelerated a dissapearnce of ALL Havdala sensibilities.
2. That I believe in a chicken and egg metaphysical dynamic that impacts the quantity and intensity of the LGBT emasculated straight males and de-feminized straight women population and that, in particular, legislation accelerates this process.
3. That G-d is particularly displeased with a society that legislates same sex marriage or other forms of arayos and that He has been mazhir us to be non-imitative of such societies and to resist cultural osmosis from such societies.
I don't oppose the bill because I deny the existence of an immutable Gay or lesbian orientation. As stated above I am an agnostic on that point not a qofer b'ikar. So how could I, in good faith, criticize this sage Rabbis advice to sew your own kapoteh? Should an ivetarte Lashon hara speaker stop learning, davening or doing gemilus khasodim?
I oppose the bill, among other reasons, because it makes nonsense and delusional mirages statutory.
If I oppose midgets being firefighters does it mean that I am bigoted towards midgets?
If I oppose Parkinsons sufferers whose hands shake uncontrollably being neurosurgeons or concert pianists does it mean that I am bigoted towards Parkinsons sufferers?
If I oppose illiterates being English Professors does it mean that I am bigoted towards illiterates?
So when I oppose two males or two females attempting marriage does it mean that I am bigoted towards LGBTs?
By homosexuality I mean having certain dispositions to have sex with a man and acting on those dispositions. A taavah is not sufficient or ain ledavar sof, who knows what we are yearning for unconsciously? I never mentioned yearning, I was talking of intercourse.
We can talk of free will all we want, but it is irrelevant to the topic of 1)gay marriage 2)male- male intercourse. Rabbi Sherlow never said abstinence or non abstinence is impossible. Nor is the issue in NY how should Jews or Orthodox Jews behave, though that is the topic Rabbi Sherlow addresses.You want to tell non frum Jewish gays to abstain from sex, kol hakavod, though R. Sherlow would not make that speech.
I don't know about your point 1, but your point 2 is difficult to comprehend. There are men with a weak character and passive personality who are in full possesion of their sexual desires for women and their ability to perform. And there are more than enough strong dominant male personalties whose sexual powers are severly diminished.The idea that allowing gays to marry or the existence of gays diminishes or saps the masculinity of males, turns them into nebishes, is a fantasy. And similarly to say dykes cause the de-feminization of heterosexual women, lacks any evidence. How is this supposed to work? A feminine woman walks down the street, sees a dyke riding a motorcycle or playing softball, goes home and becomes a castrating machsheifah.
Back to my original comment.I offered up the quote from Rabbi Sherlow because I found it an example of a different perspective and thought your readers might agree.
You want to tell non frum Jewish gays to abstain from sex, kol hakavod, though R. Sherlow would not make that speech.
Huh??? He wouldn't? How did you translate/ interpret this:
. אם השאלה היא האם מותר לקיים יחסי אישות חד מיניים התשובה היא חד משמעית: לא. בלי שום היתר והקלות.
More to upset you this erev sahbbos, lol.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2011/07/22/gay-hotel-coming-to-nyc-this-fall/
think the marriage equality bill might have had something to do with this?
I read it like a rabbinical version of 'don't ask don't tell' as follows: Depends what is being asked. If someone comes and asks a direct question or when talking about the topic in general to others, the rabbi must say it is forbidden because it is indeed forbidden. But if the guy is not asking what is the torah's views, say he knows it, or he is not discussing whether to be gay, then as he says in the first paragraph there is no one approach as to what to say.
IMO that is a willful and misleading misreading of the Rabbis words.
He's saying that IHHO short of anal sex there is a lot of halakhic wiggle room. A Rainbow of opinion and approaches (ironic imagery). the only thing that comes across clearly is that he is a firm believer in the hard-wired nature of homosexual orientation and would generally not attempt to alter it through therapy.
EJ
Please look at the following from the same author which seems to reflect a sanitized version (and non-chareidi) version of bray's generic shita
http://www.jewishideas.org/articles/torah-and-natural-way-world
I would onlt add that there is a major difference between homosexuality and condoning gay marriage .(chullin 93)
Midwest
Midwest...Having read your intelligent comments over the years, I have come to believe you are an honest broker, saying things as they are with a minimal of spin. I fail to see how you read a similarity to Bray's views in this article. A rabbi, any rabbi is going to emphasize the importance of Torah, mitzvot and holiness in guiding a Jewish life, as well as the centrality of Israel. This is bivchinas dog bites man. The issue is the second dimension, the otoh, where and how torah is integrated and embedded in the world. R. Sherlow says the Torah "obligates a religious person to play a role in the development of the world and its advancement on all levels—societal, intellectual, and cultural...the concern for earning a livelihood by the labor of one’s own hands, one’s partnership with the world, one’s cultural ties, one’s general knowledge—these are self-evident in the Torah. There is no need whatsoever for any justification, since these things are part of the ways of the world... the Jew is a citizen of the world and is part of it, and in this respect functions in the framework of all humanity... Torah, sees the natural way of life as the foundation of existence...(Halacha)obligates us to relate to natural morality, to the proper interrelationships among people even when no halakha specifically is involved. In this framework, one accepts upon him or herself the ways of the world in the matter of the ethics of warfare and the struggle against military crimes."
No R. Lichtenstein style self torture on being allowed to read literature, no TIDE, no Torah u'Madah, but rather "There is no need whatsoever for any justification..." Similarly when it comes to paying taxes there is no argument from chilul Hashem, no pain in talking of a morality prior to Torah, but instead we have "(Halacha)obligates us to relate to natural morality." And this idea of a prior moral law not dependent on revelation has teeth, as he says one accepts upon oneself "the struggle against military crimes," a thought that confirms the work of the NGO's and the left these many years.
I"ll give one last example which symbolically at least is as anti havdala as one can be and remain Orthodox. I am told by a reliable source that spinsters in Israel whose biological clock is about to expire, have gone/go to R. Sherlow, and he is matir in vitro insemination by a goy, which results in a Jewish mother, non-Jewish father and no fear of future mamzeirus or incest.
Rabbi Sherlow has consistently shown himself to be part of the solution, unlike other rabbis who become part of the problem, as we have just seen in the fight how to handle cases of molestation.
EJ
I appreciate your remarks about me.
The Teshuvah you refer to
http://www.jewishideas.org/taxonomy/term/63/0
He allows with some angst. Its worth reading in detail.
I was referring to the fact that ,as I read him, he recognizes that there is a natural order quoting Rav Kook - Derech Eretz - and that we are obligated to follow it albeit with some boundaries proscribed by the Torah
He includes scientific advances in his definition of natural order. Chareidim would perhaps not.
I find that Bray has a very elastic definition of Havdala. The connection to gay marriage , I guess, is that boys are inherently different than girls(I can't believe that I wrote that sentence)and thus one who reverses their role is going against havdala. The statement that we are expected to follow the natural order thus is what I was equating.
Midwest
thank you both for your erudite comments. Busy day but I will try to read the referenced articles and comment or post about them.
For now EJ let me just say this. I essentially khop the khilik that you are making between Rabbi Sherlow and Torah U'madah and TIDE but , sight unseen , I would still not typecast him, much less condemn him, as an anti-havdalist. OTC some of us kharedim have a skin-deep sense of our Havdala-Qedusha such that one who looks/ dresses like a goy is one! While the truth is that the essential הבדלה ביו ישראל לעמים lies at the very core of their beings/souls hundreds of layers beneath similarity and, in some cases, clone-like identity.
It is precisely the authentic Jewish thinkers whose weltanscahung demands greater engagement with humanity at large that are forced to apprehend the הבדלה ביו ישראל לעמים on it's most deep-seated and nuanced level.
I look forward to reading more of this , new to me, rabbis stuff and I'm fairly confident that I will find therein the kind of Havdala-Qedusah sensibility I'm talking about.
EJ and Bray,
There is a sefer called Even Shlomo which is from the Talmidai HaGra. I would point out a few passages that indicate:
1 Some people are born with a good nature and some with a propensity to evil, and they are judged taking this into account. David Hamelech
item 29 note 21.
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49285&st=&pgnum=25
2. There are some basic "instincts" which people have and a persons task is to channel them appropriately. item 21
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49285&st=&pgnum=22
3. There is not 1 solution for all people item 12 & 16
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49285&st=&pgnum=20
Thus while I am quite weak in nuances in Ivrit , I don't think any of the thoughts expressed conflict with classic tradition.
Midwest
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