Thanks to links and cross postings provided by Mega-J-Bloggers R' Harry Maryles, Hirschel Tzig and Rafi of "Life in Israel" my last post actually garnered quite a number of intelligent comments. I'd like to respond to many of the criticisms raised in a general way.
1. What is a Chumra? Quite a few commenters were irked by my characterization of Cholov Yisroel and Glatt Flaish as Khumros. I was not trying to opine as a big maven in Halakha nor trying to be a קל fobbing off baseline Halakha as some wild-eyed-fanatical-stringency. I was merely relating my sociological observations. IMO most Jews currently refraining from Cholov Stam do not do so because RMF z"l wrote that לבעל נפש ראוי להחמיר but because of the Chasidisha emphasis on it treating cholov stam as absolute cholov chazir.
2. Whence Anti-Zionism? Many a commenter said that this prevailing attitude was sourced in the Hashqofos of the Brisker Rov rather than in those of Satmar-Munkatch. I am incredulous of this interpretation for a number of reasons:
A. The Hashqofos of the Brisker Rov are תורה שבעל פה while those of Satmar Ruv are printed for everyone to see in manifestos such as ויואל משה וקונטרס על הגאולה ועל התמורה as well as suffusing many of his other prolific writings.
B. In Brisk anti-Zionism is a plank in a larger platform, in Satmar it IS the platform
C. Up until the early 70s only a minority of US Litvisha Yeshiva-leit ever went to learn in Israeli Yeshivos yet the American Yeshiva velt was thoroughly Anti-Zionist by then. I find it much more plausible that the major cultural influence for this was the US based Satmar Ruv and the already colossal and agressive following that he had forged rather than the influence of the Brisker Rov
D. from the mid 60s to the mid 70s there were still a large number of US Litvisha Yeshiva-leit heading for Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz, Rav Nochum Pertzovitz, Rav Shmuel Rozovksky, Rav Michel Feinstein, Rav Abba Berman, Khevron, Rav Moshe Shapira and Rav Moshe Shmuel Shapira rather than Rav Berel and Rav Dovid Soloveichik. The current zeitgeist of "Brisk or bust" certainly did not exist yet. I realize that many of the Geonim mentioned were Brisker talmidim and/or influenced but... many were not. Some were positively moderate and "soft" on Zionism.
E. Brisk at that time, and to a certain extent even today, was an elitist movement targeting(relatively) small numbers of true Metzuyonim. I am incredulous of the pan-frum anti-Zionist sentiment spreading so far and wide would emanate from an elitist movement targeting a tiny slice of the population. There are thousands of Jews today who use eruvin (which Briskers don't) and are strict about all fast days (which Briskers are not) who are virulently Anti-Zionist.
3. Is Tekheles about Archeology or Eschatology? I will accept the critique of those more familiar with the ways and mores of Modern Orthodoxy than me who claim that the popularity of tekheles is due to a fascination with Archeology and Chemistry validating Halakha. But I'd like to ask them to think about this: Absent Rav Gershon Henokh (The Radzyner Rebbes)'s life work would anyone even be bothering to look and care about fossilized Tekheles? Furthermore beneath the Radzyners many dry halakhic/ scientific appeals for the restoration of Tekheles there was always a strong undercurrent of anticipating the Messianic era and the restoration of ALL lost Mitzvos. Without him do you really think that there would be people reproducing כלי המקדש and בגדי כהונה ? People trying to raise a kohen in a bubble to process a Parah Adumah? People trying to reinstate the Sanhedrin? Or, most recently, Rav Chaim Kanievsky ZGZ signing up to be one of the M'nuyim on a Qorbon Pesakh? I'm still convinced that it was he who got the ball rolling on these and other similar projects and that as both a Gaon and a Rebbe, his imagination was fired by the Messianic Raison d'etre of the entire Beshtian Khasidic enterprise אימתי קאתי מר? לכשיפוצו מעינתיך חוצה
4. Poor writng: "Dovy" over on R' Harrys blog commented: interesting post with much truth I'm afraid.. Just wish it was written a little better. All I can say is that Dovy is obviously not a maven on fine writing. ;-)
5. Cheek -by-Jowl Cultural Osmosis: "Chareidi" says that I falsified history. I challenge him to provide us with some examples of the kind of geographical proximity in interbellum Eastern Europe that is the norm in large Frum communities today. I'm not unconscious of such facts as e.g. many Novardhoker Yeshivas in the Polish Chasidic heartland, Slonim, Lubavitch and Karlin, to name a few, existing in the Litvisha-Misnagdisha heartland or the Agudas Yisroel movement introducing many rank and file Jews to gedolim from lands unlike their own. But the kind of forced modus vivendi that existed in the immediate post-war era has no parallel in pre-war Europe. You didn't have Yekisha, Litvisha and Gerrer girls all attending the same Bais Yaakovs as they did in New York, Bnei Braq and Yerushalayim as they did from the early 50s through the mid 70s.
6. Magyarization or Chasidification? Look... I was all over the field. The Chasidic world is no monolith (although the march towards tyrannical conformity gallops apace in both Chasidisha and Yeshivisha Kreizen) and I cited influences from Radzyn, Chabad, Satmar, Ger, Breslov as well as generic, pan-Chasidisha ideas and attitudes. So IMO this critique is a nitpick.
"Kovner"... click here. You were being gently ribbed
בא המבדיל והעמידן על אחת
"Those who cannot tolerate Havdala cannot appreciate Qedusha"
Sunday, December 18, 2011
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
9 comments:
I think you're way off base on a lot of this...
Most notably the zionism part. The anti-zionism of the Satmar Rebbe is non-existent in litvish/yeshivish/Brisker circles today. No One (except for Satmar/Hungarian chassidim and NK) will tell you that they oppose the medina because of the shvuos.
You claim that "There are thousands of Jews today who use eruvin (which Briskers don't) and are strict about all fast days (which Briskers are not) who are virulently Anti-Zionist"
Hogwash. Again, aside from NK and Hungarians, no one in America is really anti Zionist anymore. (I would call them non-Zionists.) The medina is a fact, and being anti Zionist is a thing of the past. The Yated newspaper, which is the mouthpiece of American chareidi Jewry is quite supportive of the medina and IDF (although they may criticize the government's decisions.)
About chalav yisrael, I think you're wrong there too. Do you have any evidence that chassidic influence is any more important here than Rav Moshe's tshuva?
About tcheiles - you without the Radzyner who would be wearing tcheiles...By the same token, would anyone be wearing tcheiles without Rav Herzog? without the machon ptil tcheilet (or whatever it's called?) Besides the fact that no one yeshivish wears tcheiles anyway, so you're saying that American MO was influenced so strongly by the Radzyner who died 100 nyears ago? Pretty weak argument there.
Great posts, Bray. And to think that you almost closed up shop! Horrors!
Here is an article that will give you an idea of the extent of Reb Chaim's anti-Zionism. See http://bit.ly/tZ4Owp
For the record, Hamodia would not publish this article. I submitted it to Der Yid, asked that they translate it into Yiddish and publish it. They turned me down.
Dr. Yitzchok Levine
no one in America is really anti Zionist anymore. (I would call them non-Zionists.) The medina is a fact, and being anti Zionist is a thing of the past
The average yeshiva man views the Medina it's historical founders as well as present leadership as a Torah-hating enemy, (albeit one that should be manipulated as much as possible for financial and security support, something Satmar does not do), has no use whatsoever for any trappings of Zionist pride, would run as fast as his legs could carry him from a shul displaying a Israeli flag or saying hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut and Yom Yerushalyim, feels no pride whatsoever in Israeli Nobel Winners or relief efforts to post-Tsunami Phuqet or post-earthquake Haiti, refuses to do the minute of silence on Yom HaZiqaron, declares the seforim he authors as published in E. Israel rather than merely in Israel. And that is the crux of where we differ.
I think that Yeshivaleit are strongly anti-Zionist.(albeit perhaps not as obsessively anti-Zionist as actual Satmars) What they are pro is ERETZ Yisroel and, in particular, the iteration of Kharedi civilization found there (more authentic and alta-heimish than the Americana or British brand) . I don't think that it's a stretch to say that if the Medina had been founded in Uganda and there developed Kharedi enclaves in Kampala and Amuria to rival those in Bnei Braq and Jerusalem that Khu"l Kharedim would be just as fond of those. Which brings us to ...
The Yated newspaper, which is the mouthpiece of American chareidi Jewry is quite supportive of the medina and IDF (although they may criticize the government's decisions.)
the Yated loves Eretz Yisroel and the frum yishuv there. They hate Israelis and their Leaders. If they are supportive of the IDF at all it is only because the pragmatic reality that absent those soldiers the Arabs would slaughter all Jews including the Kharedim. They don't love the shetokhim and Gush Katif, they love using Gush Katif evacuation as yet another stone to hurl at the G-dless Zionist leaders.
Which Pidyon Shvuyim case did they throw themselves into more wholeheartedly...Rubashkin or Shalit?
About chalav yisrael, I think you're wrong there too. Do you have any evidence that chassidic influence is any more important here than Rav Moshe's tshuva?
If all Cholv Yisroel drinkers were s confident in the psokim of Rav Moshe I think that we'd see a lot more 48 inch Mekhitzos in Shuls and no one would stick their hands in their pockets on Shabbos.
I'm curious to see YOUR evidence. We could argue about this the livelong day.
Besides the fact that no one yeshivish wears tcheiles anyway,
So?? My article dealt with Khasidisha influences across the frum spectrum.
so you're saying that American MO was influenced so strongly by the Radzyner who died 100 years ago? Pretty weak argument there.
Yes that's what I'm saying. Unlike you I don't think that the state of present day Jewry sprung up in a vacuum. The wheels of history turn slowly...but surely. I ma fascinated in connecting the cause-and-effect dots
Thank you for your article Dr. Levine. Very well written and provocative. I can't understand why Der Yid would not translate it. For the right price I might...;-). Nor am I surprised by HaModia turning it down. The Gerrers are mildly Zionist and far more anti-Satmar than the Yeshivisha velt is.
In any event it does not refute my thesis in any way that I can tell.
"The average yeshiva man views the Medina it's historical founders as well as present leadership as a Torah-hating enemy"
True. But this is more indicative of Brisker influence than of Satmar's fundamental philosophical opposition to a medina. Again, Satmar's philosophical opposition due to the Shalosh Shvuos is almost nonexistent today. The Brisker opposition was always more practical, due to harisas hadas and pikuach nefesh considerations, and that is what has taken hold in yeshivish circles today.
"has no use whatsoever for any trappings of Zionist pride etc."
Like I said, they are more non-Zionist than anti-Zionist.
"If all Cholv Yisroel drinkers were s confident in the psokim of Rav Moshe I think that we'd see a lot more 48 inch Mekhitzos in Shuls and no one would stick their hands in their pockets on Shabbos."
And if they were so influenced by Chassidim we'd see many more 10 am minyanim and fur hats.
"I'm curious to see YOUR evidence. We could argue about this the livelong day."
I don't have evidence, just a gut feeling. But I'm not the one publicizing an article on this.
About the Radzyner and tcheiles, do you really think that the MO who wear tcheiles share the Radzyner's motivations (yafutzu maayonosecha)? Is MO's tcheiles obssession tied in any way to any chassidic philosophical bent? Since the answer is a clear "no", I don't see how you can claim this as support for the chassidization of Orthodoxy. It's more of a coincidence that the Radzyner was the first to express interest in this.
And if they were so influenced by Chassidim we'd see many more 10 am minyanim and fur hats.
We have..and I predict, will see even more of them in the future. Many a תינוק שנשבה לבין הליטאים who had Zaides and Bubbes "vuss hoben gefuhren tzi Rebbes" but who went beardless themselves have kids and ainiklakh in full regalia speaking Yiddish as a first language and davening with more "relaxed" zmanim.
Or haven't you been to any shtiblakh lately?
Stop harping on the Radzyner please. I think I modified my claim in item 3 in a way that should satisfy you.
Like I said, they are more non-Zionist than anti-Zionist.
I beg to differ. Most mentschen who are non comital about something will "do as the Romans when in Roman" out of common courtesy. It is highly disrespectful and antagonizing to go about your own business when a whole country is taking 5 minutes of silence to mourn their fallen heroes. No one would do it unless they were deeply opposed to the country and it's founding principles. It is a potch in punim...and meant to be.
Not flying a US Flag on Veterans Day is non-Patriotism. interrupting a Veterans March on Veterans Day would be perceived as anti-Patriotic.
Chalmers: Yes, that is correct. Without the Radzyner's work, I can guarantee that no MO would be wearing murex techeiles. Rav Herzog discovered the murex chilazon while trying to prove the Radzyner right.
BTW, I know plenty of yeshivish people who wear techeiles. You don't see them because they're embarrassed to be seen not toeing the line so they keep it tucked in.
Post a Comment