Today is the 19th of Kislev. It is a day celebrated by Chasidim in general as the Yuhrzeit of the Mezritcher Magid and by Chabad Chasidim in particular as the day that the Alter Rebbe (AKA the Rav and the Ba'al HaTanya) was liberated from his first incarceration in Czarist Prison and referred to as ראש השנה לחסידות . As such it got me, a non-Khusid, thinking about how Chasidish we have all become.
In pre-war Eastern Europe the various Jewish regions were basically culturally secluded from others. The Litvaks, Byelorussians and Latvians were, by and large, Misnagdim. The Germans, mostly Reform and, if observant, Hirschian. While great swaths of Poland, Galitzia, Hungary, Rumania and Ruthenia were Chasidish each region had it's own flavor of Chasidus and idiom of Yiddish.
Not so in the post war era. In almost every large Jewish population center around the world Holo-survivors of all of the aforementioned groups and their descendants began living cheek-by-jowl with one another along with indigenous frum populations that were there before the war and, at least in the immediate post-war years, attending the same schools and "intermarrying".
And so, cultural osmosis was inevitable. Yet it's clear that the Chasidim have had the far greater influence on the rest of us, in particular on the Yeshivisha velt than vice versa. Below I present a partial list of ways and mores that were once associated exclusively with Chasidim that have made great inroads among "the rest of us" (in no particular order):
Chumras in Kashrus: Cholov Yisroel and Glatt Flaisch although TBF if memory serves, Yoshon and heightened bug/ cychapod/ Toloim awareness began in Yeshivisha Kraizen.
Taareevos / Qedusha /Tznius: Mekhitzas Mekhitzas everywhere, weddings, simchas, dinners, kiddushim, buses, and they keep getting higher and more opaque. No pictures of even Tzanua women in print. No sitting in the same sections of buses. No mention of kallahs names in engagement announcements. Shortened courtship in shidduchim. Greater pre-first date screening / vetting in shiduchim. Fewer kallahs coming to the mens side during כיצד מרקדים . A shaitel being an anathema in certain quarters (primarily Chardal and Chavakuks. Although TBF I don't know f this is sourced in Chasidisha or Sfardisha influences). Suffice it to say that a generation or two ago none of this existed in Yeshivish, Yekkish and MO circles.
Levush/ Grooming: No color, lots of black and white even among the females. The doffing of ties and cuff-links. Long gatkes and no cuff shirts. Near universal peyos and many a pre-wedding beard. Khalakas-Upsherins for the three year olds. Near universal Shaitels / hair covering (yes Virginia, a generation or two ago very few MO women covered their hair at all, not to mention some other coverables, and even quite a few prominent Litvisha Rebitzens went bareheaded and smoked to boot!). RAK forbade Shtreimels in BMG. RMF allowed the use of certain electric razors. RYYR ejected bokhrim who grew beards from NIRC משום יוהרא (IINM this obtained in Telshe as well). There was nary a gartel to be seen in any Yeshiva or Young Israel. Straw hats in the summer were the norm, even among Roshei Yeshiva including some Panama Hats.
Tekheiles used to unheard of outside Radzyner survivors and a few pockets of Breslovers. While the Tekheiles that is all the rage in MO circles today is Rav Herzogs and not Rav Gershon Henikhs, it is an undeniable historical fact that it was he who began the Renaissance of this long forgotten mitzvah, and in a certain sense the whole, let's-do-mitzvos-we-haven't-done-in-decades/centuries/ millenia movement so popular today (Shiluach hakan, Yoshon, Pidyon peter khamor, Zroya V'lkhoayim wearing Tefilin the live-long day and donning them at home then walking to Shul...to name a few)
Anti-Zionism; Munkatcher/ Satmar ideology on the topic is triumphant and near universal in the Yeshivisha velt. Even among Khardals there has been some serious re-examination of the cornerstones of their Religious-Zionist ideology in the wake of the Gush Qatif evacuation. This is apocryphal but I've heard tell that in 1949 in Chevron Yeshiva they said Hallel on Yom HaAtzmaut. That Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach said that going to IDF military cemeteries is visiting kivrei Tzadikim and that Rav Chaim Shmuelevitz opined that the IDF casualties were like famous martyrs in the time of the Khurban. Let's see them try and get away with that now.
Hostility to Secular Education: A generation ago at least in American Yeshiva High Schools, students received a quality secular education and more than 40-50% went on to receive University degrees. Today in boys Yeshivas secular studies are an open joke, Hanholos compete for Khashivus at least in part by how successfully they can marginalize the secular studies. Today Litvisha High School graduates are mostly functional illiterates and speak a pidgin English like their Chasidisha counterparts. Albeit with less of an accent .
Kiruv and Missionary-like desire to spread the faith. אימתי קאתי מר was once an exclusively Chasidic anthem and ethos. While it's true that Novardhok did have a missionary proselytizing zeal even before the war they have melted away into history. Any fair historian must connect the dots of all Litvisha Kiruv Yeshivas and organizations back to Chabad. The fact that young khinukh couples will occasionally move to the boonies and that "Kiruv rabbi" has now joined the list of respected Qlei Qodesh, joining Mohalim, Shokhtim, Sofrim, Rabonim, Melamdim and Roshei Yeshiva represents a sea-change in mainstream Judaisms thinking compared to 40 years ago.
Segulos: Chai Rotel Mashkeh, Amuka, Pigeons-to-cure-hepatitis, Kupat HaIr and Vaad HaRabonim marketing. Enough said
Hagiographies: as was always the norm among Khasidim non-kasidisha Gedolim must now also be Qedoshim M'Rekhem Eemom. If they had pasts...best to hide it. If they had growing pains... best to dissemble about it.
Kivrei Tzadikim: Always a big inyan by Chasidim it has gained much cache among the rest of us in the past few decades. From Carlebach fans flocking to Shlomos kever on Har Hamenukhos, to Chasidim rediscovering RJJ as a Tzadik, to invading Arab territory for Yosef Hatzadik, to Rav Pesach Krone led Heritage tours of Eastern Europe, to all the non-Chasidim on the Charter flights to Berditcehv and Lizhensk, Kever hopping has gone mainstream.
Especially universal is the Uman experience. You could roll all the mainstream and Looney-Tune sub-sects of Breslov into one, triple it and there would still be no accounting for the enormous RH crowds in Uman. It seems as though everyone is entitled to love their own stripe of Judaism....and Breslov too!
Leadership: the kind of sense of infallibility, un-challenge-ability, ability to intercede in prayer, efficacy of granting brachos, expertise in fields that they were not trained in once attributed only to Chasidic Masters is now the norm in relating to Litvisha gedolim. Ironically IMO todays Yeshivaleit have out-chasidished the Chasidim in these departments and whereas many contemporary Chasidim, especially in those Hoifen that have been riven by internal infighting and schisms, display a "healthy" skepticism towards their own leaders the average Yeshivaman is totally mevatel himself and independent thought to Daas Torah. Are their more sought after Brakhos granters or eitzeh gaibers in the world today than Rav Chaim Kaniefski ZGZ and his shver?
Ancillary to this is another originally Chasidish dimension of leadership. Goyim have celebrities who are otherwise talent free but "famous for being famous", Chasidim have almost always had some Masters who were "Leader because they led". They were not famous for Geonos or even necessarily tzidkus or for their ability to work miracles. This is especially true since dynasties became almost exclusively hereditary rather than moving from Master to Disciple. This brings me to a current event that really sparked this post. But as this post is too long for anyone to read already I'll save it for a part two. Stay tuned.
The only serious question left is: With this much הפצת המעינות why does Moshiach continue to tarry?
UPDATE AS OF 8:30 PM EST SUNDAY NIGHT. CLICK HERE to see the new post in which I address many of the critiques in the thread on this post.
UPDATE AS OF 3:00 PM EST January 16, 2012 CLICK HERE for part II
בא המבדיל והעמידן על אחת
"Those who cannot tolerate Havdala cannot appreciate Qedusha"
35 comments:
Beware the Ministry of Truth. When they get their hands on this article, the rewrite will not be so kind.
Did I write anything offensive?
Not in the slightest. But they may not allow your revisionism to stand.
That is "revisionism", in quotes.
FCOL George not only do I not think that there is anything offensive in this post I don't even think there is anything particularly controversial. This was pretty much straightforward reportage...not editorializing.
U can't promise the same for part II ;-)
Here's the problem: after WW2 there was a tremendous upheaval. So much of what had been was gone without a trace including people's sense of security in the past.
As a result, what makes you feel like you're doing "more" makes you feel more Jewish. In the past one could be secure that you were doing kiddush like your father did like his father did etc. It didn't matter than the Chasidim down the street did it differently. You had your centuries old tradition and confidence in it.
After the war all that disappeared so as a result, people invented new traditions to make themselves feel whole and since Chasidim have the most colourful and strict traditions they naturally had the most influence.
Garnel:
A. Why weren't the Chasidm themselves riven withthe same insecurities?
B. Much of what disappeared without a trace were scores of Chasidic sects, Mostly from Poland and Galitzia.
Very interesting post. Definitely food for thought.
Just a few brief points:
"A generation ago at least in American Yeshiva High Schools, students received a quality secular education and more than 40-50% went on to receive University degrees."
I believe this was actually quite high for that time. It wasn't like nowadays with the diploma mills and push for universal college education (of whatever quality).
Hagiographies - Artscroll has an awful lot to do with this. They're the de facto learning tool in nearly every community. They've reshaped davening and learning and have put a new emphasis on the mystical.
But Artscroll is composed of living breathing human beings. many of whom have been heavily influenced by Chasidisha ways and mores.
Rabbi Sherman is a TV alum, a Yeshiva, that while not strcitly chasidish davens Nusakh Sfard and has a Mashgiakh who doubles as a Rebbe (Rav Wolfson, leader of the Moonies). Rabbi Sherman also wears long begodim even on weekdays.
Maybe my stats are inaccurate but i can tell you anecdotaly that I came into Bais Medrash with a class of around 35 and that within two years at least 25 were going to school at night. Almost all graduated. classes above and below my own for several years were about the same.
Garnel:
A. Why weren't the Chasidm themselves riven withthe same insecurities?
Who says they weren't? Look at how mainstream Chasidus has increased the emphasis on Litvish style learning since WW2.
At any rate, there is a tremendous difference between Chasidim and Litvaks. Litvak-type Judaism was concentrated in eastern Europe and pretty much nowhere else (maybe Gateshead?). Chasidim, on the other hand, had organized presences in North America and Israel by the time the war started. So they would have been better able to maintain their traditions.
B. Much of what disappeared without a trace were scores of Chasidic sects, Mostly from Poland and Galitzia.
Both groups lost a huge amount but here's the essential difference: Chasidus is portable. One can be a Blowmynoser Chasid anywhere in the world as long as one wears the right kind of shtreiml on Shabbos. The Litvish were defined by specific institutions. When those yeshivos disappeared much of what defined them did too.
> Rabbi Sherman is a TV alum
Really? What show was he on?
TV= Torah VoDaas but you knew that.
The Litvish were defined by specific institutions. When those yeshivos disappeared much of what defined them did too.
A. This remark reveals an anti-kahsidic prejudice that misses the fact that for many of the sects destroyed in the Holocaust it was about much more than levush and that you needed training and education in a specific shnit to be a bona fide khusid
B. Chevron and Ponovezh were up and running pre war in Israel. TV, NIRC, RJJ, MTJ, Chaim Berlin, YU, Chofetz Chaim and, I think , a branch of Telshe were around in the USA before the war along with scores of Young Israels
What's weird about all this is that while it was definitely on a slide to this over the past X number of decades, it seems like it became a slippery slope only in the past 10 years or so. It's weird how many people don't seem to notice it. It's also weird how many people are more or less okay with it, who were already adults and even middle aged 10 or 20 years ago, and who displayed not very many signs of this stuff in themselves. Why the changes without even a whimper of protest from them?
I should also say that with things like college and so forth, as the community got more successful and affluent, as the yeshiva and kollelim were flourishing more, and probably as money seemingly grew on trees in the 90s, probably a lot of people saw higher education as definitely pointless. So what was once bedieved, is today pointless and since it is less frum, definitely not a good idea. As the peanut gallery is fond of pointing out, some of the wealthiest businessjews had no college, and in fact any intelligent avreikh can crack the system and make a living as soon as he puts his mind to it.
What actually happened (aside for all the people killed) was that Chassidus is almost definitionally anti-modern. It is ever vigilant against reversing the buttons on the front of a garment. The real, historical, classical, actual Litvishe yeshiva world was maybe 1/10th as antimodern. Many a Litvak with a fine high yarmulke, and a real attachment to yeshivas and the like, had not the slightest problem with naming their kid Marvin and sending them to City College. That was part of Litvish culture. Is it any wonder that in third generation Litvak culture would be, and is, anemic - except by adopting more and more of those anti-modernist norms? That's how it revived and continues to "revive."
Very interesting post. Prof. Lawrence Kaplan should weigh in on it.
This post is excellent, maybe your best so far imo, and I fully agree. I want to add one more big change, which I assume few will accept. When I was growing up everyone was liberal, pro labor unions, the New Deal, and voted for the Democrats. Today more than 70% of Orthodoxy are right wing, with a substantial number racist, totalitarian and proto fascist.
I remember seeing back then a rabbi who today is the subject of an Art Scroll hagiography, walk in public with a NY Post,(then very liberal,) under his arm. Today half the olam are to the right of the Likud, and so many approve of Republican pro-evangelical candidates like Bachman etc., who speak of a Christian America.
I want to ask you, how do you differ from the current dominant views on college and on tsniyus? I would think you cannot defend 1945-1965 Orthodoxy without a softening of your havdalah thesis.
Here's the problem: after WW2 there was a tremendous upheaval. So much of what had been was gone without a trace including people's sense of security in the past.
As a result, what makes you feel like you're doing "more" makes you feel more Jewish. In the past one could be secure that you were doing kiddush like your father did like his father did etc. It didn't matter than the Chasidim down the street did it differently. You had your centuries old tradition and confidence in it.
After the war all that disappeared so as a result, people invented new traditions to make themselves feel whole and since Chasidim have the most colourful and strict traditions they naturally had the most influence.
I think the exact same is true by Chassidim themselves (maybe with the exception of Chabad, somewhat). They are always looking at other Chassidim and adding new minhogim and becoming more stringent etc. and are not content with what their fathers or previous Rebbes did for generations.
I don't have time to elaborate now, but I believe your thesis has one major mistake. You did not take into account the strong influence that the (Litveshe) way of life of Eretz Yisroel affected the Americans who learned there; especially Brisk. Go back over again all your points and you will see how it's the Israel influence that created the change.
Evanston...
>This post is excellent, maybe your best so far imo,
Shkoyakh
>and I fully agree.
Agree to what? This post was one of observation and repoprtage . I never said whether I was pro or con merely reporting on a sociological phenomenon. I descibed myself as non-Khusid not anti-khusid. For an Op-Ed pice stay tuned for part two
> Today more than 70% of Orthodoxy are right wing, with a substantial number racist, totalitarian and proto fascist.
Not sure your stats are right. 98% of New Square voted for Hillary Clinton for Senator of NY State. In general I think that in Khasidic enclaves there is still a pro-Democrat leaning because those are the candidates most generous with social welfare programs. TTBOMK the only folks who allow "Principles" (and the principles are those of morality not capitalism)to trump realpolitik are the ardent Rav Miller followers.
>I remember seeing back then a rabbi who today is the subject of an Art Scroll hagiography, walk in public with a NY Post,(then very liberal,) under his arm.
Maybe he was following the H L Mencken dictum (I paraphrase)"If you only have time to read one newspaper make sure it is the one published by the opposition party"
>I want to ask you, how do you differ from the current dominant views on college and on tsniyus?
Wait for part two but b'kitzur I basically have no problems with many of the tznius khumras as they are to compensate for a culture much more lascivious and hyper-sexualized than that of the 50s and while I oppose the secular studies hostility it is not because I am pro-secular studies per se but because it aids and abets the more overarching problem of tyrannical conformity that IMO stultifies and depresses people, especially youngn's
>I would think you cannot defend 1945-1965 Orthodoxy without a softening of your havdalah thesis.
correct. In this post I have come neither to attack nor defend, merely to observe and report.
Abba Kovner-
OTC, while I am obviously more familiar with American Frum Jewry I think it's poshut that the Khasidification of the Israeli Yeshivisha velt is even more pronounced than it is here.
i already acknowledged that some of the kashrus khumras originated by the Yeshivisha Kreizen and that the cultural osmosis ran two ways. I am merely proposing that the influence of the Khasidim on the rest of us has been greater than vice versa.
Other than Anti-Zionism (Brisker Rov) and levush /Grooming (Chazon Ish) can you trace back to Israeli -Misnagdisha sources.
No Kovner my thesis is sound.
Bray - Great post. Thanks Tzig for the link.
I think that your categorization of this phenomena as Chassidish and Litvishe phenomena misses on a key component. I think a major factor to this shift is the Hungarianization of both the Chassidish and Litvishe worlds. (I am writing this as a very proud Hungarian who attended the finest Litvishe Yeshivas who resides in Boro Park).
Hungarian Jewry, both Chassidish and Ashkenazish, have infiltrated the Litvishe and even the non-Hungarian Chassidishe world and put their stamp. Which all manifests itself in all the points mentioned, Zionism, Kashrus, Tznius, Levush, etc.
As a side note, I think the Techeiles phenomena in the MO world is unrelated. I think that the YU world is enamored with the idea of paskening from Scientific and Archaeological analysis, as it fits in well with their world view.
AK
you may be right but that's attributable to demographics. Less Hungarians perished in the War than from other European countries. So the Chasidic Hoifen that survived and flourished were the Hungarian ones or incorporated many Hungarians into there non-Hungarian follower base (e.g. Square and Belz). Istill call this Khasidification because the Ober-landers davened Ashkenaz, wore short begodim, shaved or trimmed their beards followed minhagei Chasam Soifer and thus were in a certain sense as Misnagdish as Litvaks.
I will own that hostility to modernity (education Zionism...all isms) is indeed probably more sourced in Chasam Sofer than in Hungarian Chasidus. OTOH isn't it rrue that historical Belz (Galitzia) out-frumed the Hungarian Chasidus'n and tha Reb Ahrele was himself a Belzer talmid/ Yoishev?
There was a time, until about 1965, when children from Hungarian families were getting Litvishized in Telshe, NIRC, BMG , Mir et al and modernized in YU. Why do you suppose the pendulum swung back the other way?
Also I really think that much of the hyper tznius is sourced in Ger which is Polish and the Kiruv is from Lubavitch which is Russian.
hagiographies, kevorim and segulahs are universal Khasidisha things and not tied TTBOMK to Hungarian Khasidus davka. Uman is in the Ukraine.
I think much of the Magyarization of contemporary orthodox stems from Chasiddic group(s)based in Transylvania (I state this as a fact not as a judgment of whether it was positive or negative). The Hungarian Oberlander tradition was essentially obliterated in post-War America (and I imagine elsewhere) where the adherents and their descendants of this illustrious tradition gradually becoming either Chassidish, Baalbatish or Yeshivish. It's a sad end to what was a culture based on eidelkeit and simplicity, and perhaps most importantly confidence, and the reasons for its demise deserves a post of its own (as Hirshel has done on occassion).
The Bray of Fundie 1:44 said...
"Did I write anything offensive?"
No not really except the misleading headline "On the Chasidification of the Rest of Jewry- A Ya"T Kislev Rumination "
It should of read כ"א כסלו what did 19 kislov had to do with any of the issues mentioned (except the debatable kiruv issue.. ) btw you left out kashrus! The #1 important change in America post WWII
I do not agree with
Chumras in Kashrus: Cholov Yisroel and Glatt Flaisch although TBF if memory serves, Yoshon and heightened bug/ cychapod/ Toloim awareness began in Yeshivisha Kraizen.
My understanding it that Cholov Yisroel is the din and there are valid heterim for using Cholov companies. Rav Shimon Schwab told me that if I could afford to keep Cholov Yisroel, then I should.
Today glatt is a fact due to the way meat is produced. Rabbi Seth Mandel of the OU has explained this in several posts to Areivim.
The bugs are there in certain things.
However, despite these so-called Chumras in kashrus, IMO the Orthodox community is quite lax when it comes to kashrus today and the statement that a rov once send me, "People do not really care if it is kosher. They just want it to have hechsher!" is on the mark.
The Israeli yeshivish velt was not influenced by Chassidim. they were influenced by brisk and the litvishe yerushalmi world. In america, the litvishe always felt that they were more goyish than the chassidim and therefore went along with the positive chassidish influences. The Israeli litvishe world did not have that chip on the shoulder.They look down upon chassidim and see no redeeming qualities in that way of life.
PS My (pen)name is "Kovner", not "aba kovner".
The Israeli yeshivish velt was not influenced by Chassidim. they were influenced by brisk and the litvishe yerushalmi world. In america, the litvishe always felt that they were more goyish than the chassidim and therefore went along with the positive chassidish influences. The Israeli litvishe world did not have that chip on the shoulder.They look down upon chassidim and see no redeeming qualities in that way of life.
PS My (pen)name is "Kovner", not "aba kovner".
Regarding cholov yisrael, it's not a chumra (according to many poskim) and it's not an invention of chassidim. Please see the following:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5760/vayikra.html
http://classic.frumteens.com//topic.php?topic_id=36
http://classic.frumteens.com//topic.php?topic_id=1613&forum_id=21&topic_title=chalav+yisroel...%3F&forum_title=&M=1&S=1
Regarding wearing black and levush, check this out:
http://www.jewswithquestions.com/index.php?/topic/76-yeshivish-chasidish-hanhagos/
Regarding "Hostility to Secular Education", that's nothing new. Please read the following:
http://classic.frumteens.com/topic.php?whichpage=1&pagesize=15&forum_title=&topic_title=Secular+Studies&forum_id=27&topic_id=956
A good article, that suffers from over reach and the attempt to make everything in the world to fit into the authors theory. As others have pointed out, the wearing of Techelis by MO (which is none existent in the Litvish world) has nothing to do with Radzin, and everything to do with the MO infatuation with using science and archeology for halachic purposes. The rising anti Zionism in the Litvish world also has noting to do with Chassidim. The Chassidish world was no more uniformly anti Zionist than the Litvish worlds (think Ger, Belz, and Lubavitch). It has everything to do with the strong Brisker influence (currently EXTREMLY widespread in Litvish circles), coupled with a general disillusionment with the secular state being felt even in the Religious Zionist movement!
Overall, a good post; though I don't read Yiddish well. ;-)
A few responses from an Israeli, Zionist educated (Mercaz HaRav, Machon Harry Fischel, and Shaalvim) type:
1. Cultural osmosis also occurs in Israel, though I would argue it is more positive. And it includes not just Yekkes, Hasidim, and Mitnagdim; but all the Sefardi influences as well. History moves on and evolution occurs. As more Sefardim and Ashkenazim marry each other (about half of our friends, for instance) over the next generation or two, we will see unpredictable developments occur. Same is true because so many more Sefardi and Ashkenazi rabbanim are serving mixed publics. Witness the status Rav Mordechai Eliyahu had with a broad Israeli public.
2. Much of the change you note is in the haredi world. The more perplexing question is why is it leaking over into Religious Zionist circles?!
3. I think in Religious Zionist circles the headcovering issue is mostly affected by Sefardi influence and simple economics and matters of taste. Why spend so much money on a sheitel when you can look pretty and fulfill your halachic needs so many other ways? My wife comments that if we were in Israel right now, she would probably jettison the sheitels. But she doesn't feel comfortable at work in America with a hat or mitpahat most of the time.
4. Techeilet in 'modern' circles is simply because the mitzvah is now possible. As Rav Schachter put it (paraphrased), 'why wouldn't we do a mitzvah we can now do?' There is an underlying ideological issue as well - just as the national return to the Land of Israel and reestablishment of sovereignty is the harbinger of renewal, so is the renewed opportunity for a mitzvah like techeilet. And what will you say when the majority of Jews are in Israel (not so far off), and mitzvot hataluyot ba-aretz become d'oraita? The other stuff you mentioned like Shiluah Hakan was always possible. I don't think there is any such renewed enthusiasm in RZ circles.
5. I don't think some RZ rethinking Zionism can be compared to the Satmar phenomenon. They aren't questioning the ideology so much as the reality. If the reality weren't so disappointing in their view, the ideology would still hold firm. Rav SZ Aurbach's comment isn't apocryphal. Rav Rimon quotes it in the name of Rav Lau, and also sefer Oro Shel Olam. But you're right that such comments aren't popular among the so-called students of Rav Aurbach, Rav Shmuelevitz, etc.
6. Kiruv. You're largely right, but don't forget that Rav Kook, Rav Zonnenfeld (I think) and others made the famous trips round the country to connect with and encourage the pioneers to connect with Torah. And Rav Kook worked hard to see rabbinates established in new towns so that Torah would be spread. In America, you had non-hassidish rabbanim in some pretty far-flung places. But you're right that they didn't do this under the banner of 'kiruv'.
Overall, it appears that your observations are correct and pertinent. But not very encouraging, IMO.
AK
you may be right but that's attributable to demographics. Less Hungarians perished in the War than from other European countries. So the Chasidic Hoifen that survived and flourished were the Hungarian ones or incorporated many Hungarians into there non-Hungarian follower base (e.g. Square and Belz). Istill call this Khasidification because the Ober-landers davened Ashkenaz, wore short begodim, shaved or trimmed their beards followed minhagei Chasam Soifer and thus were in a certain sense as Misnagdish as Litvaks.
I will own that hostility to modernity (education Zionism...all isms) is indeed probably more sourced in Chasam Sofer than in Hungarian Chasidus. OTOH isn't it rrue that historical Belz (Galitzia) out-frumed the Hungarian Chasidus'n and tha Reb Ahrele was himself a Belzer talmid/ Yoishev?
There was a time, until about 1965, when children from Hungarian families were getting Litvishized in Telshe, NIRC, BMG , Mir et al and modernized in YU. Why do you suppose the pendulum swung back the other way?
Also I really think that much of the hyper tznius is sourced in Ger which is Polish and the Kiruv is from Lubavitch which is Russian.
hagiographies, kevorim and segulahs are universal Khasidisha things and not tied TTBOMK to Hungarian Khasidus davka. Uman is in the Ukraine.
----------------------------
Belz today is Zionist compare to what it was in the old country - they admit to this.
Belz is largely Hungarian and today's frumkeit comes from them. Belzers lost their kannois in Auschwitz maybe it was WWI. When they got a taam Westernization in Berlin and Vienna.
Hungarians were getting Litvishized until 1965 but it was a reverse merger. They took over the yeshiva velt and khassidic velt.
Would there be a New Square without Hungarians?
There is not one shtetl that exists of exclusive Polish/Russian/Galitzyaner khasidim. It's not possible.
Skverer rebbe has adjusted some of his shitos, to more extreme, to accommodate the Hungarians. One example is girls not learning from a Chumash.
Hyper tzniyus has nothing to do with Ger. Ger has no influence outside their circle. This is 100% Hungarian. I would pin it on Satmar. Palm stockings et al. Hungarians are obsessed with tzniyus. I know.
Bottom line its not Khassidification its Magyarization in the guise of Khassidus.
Brisk is also a perfect host for the parasite of Homo Magyarus. The elitism and extremism of Brisk are a perfect match. Hungarians have converted to Brisk. This has made the Litvish world more extreme.
Your comment does not reflect your usual perceptiveness, I suspect you are playing devil's advocate.
Pigeons are not a segula, they are tried and tested.
Bray- Thank you for your thoughful reply to my comments. Allow me to reply:
"you may be right but that's attributable to demographics. Less Hungarians perished in the War than from other European countries. So the Chasidic Hoifen that survived and flourished were the Hungarian ones or incorporated many Hungarians into there non-Hungarian follower base (e.g. Square and Belz). Istill call this Khasidification because the Ober-landers davened Ashkenaz, wore short begodim, shaved or trimmed their beards followed minhagei Chasam Soifer and thus were in a certain sense as Misnagdish as Litvaks." - I agree that it is entirely a result of demographics. However, your point about the Oberlander Hungarians feed directly to my point. It is these families that infiltrated the Litvishe yeshiva world and moved them to the right, or became more chassidish. They may have worn short jackets and shaved, but were as right wing as can be when it came to most of the points you have mentioned.
"I will own that hostility to modernity (education Zionism...all isms) is indeed probably more sourced in Chasam Sofer than in Hungarian Chasidus. OTOH isn't it rrue that historical Belz (Galitzia) out-frumed the Hungarian Chasidus'n and tha Reb Ahrele was himself a Belzer talmid/ Yoishev?" - Exactly, the hungarians infiltrated Belz pre WWII and had this affect. It is not a new phenomena. Wasn't Reb Ahrele Hungarian?
"There was a time, until about 1965, when children from Hungarian families were getting Litvishized in Telshe, NIRC, BMG , Mir et al and modernized in YU. Why do you suppose the pendulum swung back the other way?" - I don't think that the pendulum swung back later, I think that after becoming firmly entrenched in the Litvishe yeshivos in the 1960s that they were able to affect the change you are discussing.
"Also I really think that much of the hyper tznius is sourced in Ger which is Polish and the Kiruv is from Lubavitch which is Russian." - Hyper tznius in terms of husband and wife relationship is (and remains) strictly a Gerer concept. Strict separation of the genders in all other aspects of life is as Hungarian as it comes. I will grant to the Kiruv part, kiruv is not part of the Hungarian psyche, take a look at Satmar.
"hagiographies, kevorim and segulahs are universal Khasidisha things and not tied TTBOMK to Hungarian Khasidus davka. Uman is in the Ukraine." - Very true. I think that the new trend of running to Uman, Lizensk, etc it to fill an emptiness in people's lives by seeking different "experiences".
While Reb Ahrele was geographically Hungarian what I am proposing is that he / his extreme piety were ideologically Belz. And that the extreme piety and general extremism found in Hungarian Khasidus were themselves byproducts of keeping up with the Galitzianer Jones es.
Strict separation of the genders in all other aspects of life
Really ? U think that Ger is less careful about Taareevos at weddings and simkhas than Hungarian khasidim? TTBOMK only Ger disallows Bukhrim attending weddings. The maidelakh that they are preventing them form gazing @ are not yet their wives.
Also I think that the heightened awareness of shmiras Habris / eynayim (Shaovavim campaigns, gazing down when walking in the street) are at least partially sourced in Ger.
To the extent that ברית הלשון תלוי בברית המעור so is heightened shmiras halashon sensitivity. TTBOMK sifrei Chofetz Chaim are studied more regularly in Ger than in any other hoif.
W/o getting into the theory (I dislike the whole idea of the Hasidut and hitnagdut arguments being Gashmiut and hitzoniyut-focused rather than ruchaniut and pnimiyut-focused, and most of the issues you garnered to support your claim were the former), I strongly oppose the words "to invading Arab territory for Yosef Hatzadik". While i am strongly opposed to the dangerous unapproved visits, I wouldn't call them (and kal vchomer the approved visits, kein yirbu) "invasions" (even metaphorically) and it surely is not Arab territory. "Ki chol haaretz asher ata roeh lecha etnena ulzaracha ad olam."
Its a lot more simple. There is an unprecedented level of Am hoaratzus among the Litvish, who have aways been the biggest Talmidei Chachomim. They have been left hanging. They turn to meaninglessness for support and validity.
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